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flossing/snagging

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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Marc Martyn » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:25 am

HOOKEDONFISHING wrote:Record player how long ago was that ?


Before MP3's, before CD's, before cassettes, before 8 tracks..........geez, I'm getting old. #-o
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby jens » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:34 am

natetreat wrote:Every year we have the same discussion. It's an age old ethical conundrum for salmon fishermen. Read the old thread, and then ask your questions. Otherwise this will turn into a flame topic and there are heated opinions on all sides. Just keep an eye on Jens posts :) Oops, there I go, I did it.


Good =D> =D> . I love that I am in the minority in this discussion. I know I haven't been river fishing that long, but from every fish I have hooked using corky/yarn I know the fish didn't voluntarily take my offering. So according to the definition of snagging, flossing is snagging. Sigh I am a snagger. 8-[

With that said, until flossing is made illegal, then I do it. My friends do it. We at least admit flossing takes zero skills to get a fish hooked in the mouth. I like to use a long leader so most of my fish are lined in the mouth. Gil plate forward right? #-o

Of all the gear that is used, what method foul hooks more fish? You never hear, "It's in da mouth!!" EVER from guys fishing bait and hardware. Think about it.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby HOOKEDONFISHING » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:50 am

Sorry Marc I couldn't resist .lol I don't think there the same thing. Flossing line drifts into mouth. Snagging someone is yanking line through the water until it hits fish.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby hanapaa808 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:07 am

I agree with jens 100%
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Marc Martyn » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:50 am

HOOKEDONFISHING wrote:Sorry Marc I couldn't resist .lol I don't think there the same thing. Flossing line drifts into mouth. Snagging someone is yanking line through the water until it hits fish.


It was a joke......personally I could care less about if one is the other. This topic has been played so many times it is really getting old.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby HOOKEDONFISHING » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:32 am

You being a moderator and a member of website for almost 5 years I'm sure you have seen a bunch of topics over and over.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby wdavis10 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:50 pm

There are people who have fished for years in these rivers and then there are the new guys - new guys have questions that the "pro's" have answers to - thier for we ask and I did recieve thanks to all for the input and maybe I'll see ya out there. If ya run into a guy with a handlebar mustache and sick humor say hi - we are not all alike and in my search for answers I leave no turn unstoned!!!!
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby jens » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:11 pm

wdavis10 wrote:There are people who have fished for years in these rivers and then there are the new guys - new guys have questions that the "pro's" have answers to - thier for we ask and I did recieve thanks to all for the input and maybe I'll see ya out there. If ya run into a guy with a handlebar mustache and sick humor say hi - we are not all alike and in my search for answers I leave no turn unstoned!!!!


I also have a sick sense of humor :salut: :salut: . If you are fishing to feed your family for harvesting purpose only, then I see nothing wrong with flossing/snagging. They are after all hatchery fish and are meant for killing.

But if you are in it for the sport of it and skill of it, then learn how to fish other methods. Nothing gets my blood pumping more so when my bobber gets slammed under by a hot Steelie or having my rod ripped almost out of my hand fishing spoons. There is no doubt you made a fish strike when fishing this way.

Good luck out there. :cheers:
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Mike Carey » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:38 pm

jens wrote:
wdavis10 wrote:There are people who have fished for years in these rivers and then there are the new guys - new guys have questions that the "pro's" have answers to - thier for we ask and I did recieve thanks to all for the input and maybe I'll see ya out there. If ya run into a guy with a handlebar mustache and sick humor say hi - we are not all alike and in my search for answers I leave no turn unstoned!!!!


But if you are in it for the sport of it and skill of it, then learn how to fish other methods. Nothing gets my blood pumping more so when my bobber gets slammed under by a hot Steelie or having my rod ripped almost out of my hand fishing spoons. There is no doubt you made a fish strike when fishing this way.

Good luck out there. :cheers:


Sorry jens, this is where I'll have to disagree. Unless you have underwater vision, you can't say there is no doubt. There is always a chance your lure found it's way into a open mouthed fish. All these fishing methods that have the lure skimming along the bottom have the potential of snagging a fishes mouth. The fact that the rod gets ripped out of your hand could be nothing more than a response of the fish feeling the hook and pressure. You're assuming it's the fish attacking your gear. I won't disagree - it probably is - but I also believe that in most cases my drifted corky is also being attacked by the fish.

My recent Hoodsport trip made me believe this even more firmly. We had 3+ hours of no bites and no hook-ups, casting into huge swarms of OPEN-MOUTHED CHUMS. Nothing. Then, like a light switch, hook up after hook up, then - done - bite back off again. The huge swarms of open-mouthed fish were there before and after the bite. What was the difference? So if flossing was reality, I am at a loss as to why this window occured. If you can explain it, I would truly be interested in hearing your opinion.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby jens » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:24 pm

Drift fishing with corky/yarn is based on mainly feel am I right, can we agree on that? A person casts, feels the bottom with their weight.. tick tick tick tap tick tap and then pause.. Set the hook right? Do I have a fish? Or a snag? Rockfish, stickfish, gearonthebottomfish? Sometimes that snag pulls back? You feel a head shake maybe?

I am going on experience. Of the fish I have caught with hardware or bait, there is absolutely no doubt of a bite. Why is there so much confusion with anglers when they are driftfishing?? Why do I always get asked from rookie river fisherman, "How do I know I have a bite?"

I think I can say I am pretty experienced now in my little amount of time fishing in rivers. I've come a long way when this newb started. With that said, to the original poster if flossing is snagging my opinion is it is. Flossing is snagging.

Most of us aren't fishing small remote systems where the fish aren't being bombarded by cannonballs and long leaders. But I will believe a fish will take a corky/yarn there but not in the terminal fisheries we all fish in. One river comes to mind: Tilton River. There is no way in hell a fish is biting in that river, no way. A newb friend fished it over the weekend. He said he hooked into over 50 fish. 50 fish!! He was able to take home 2 fish that were in the mouth. Look at his percentage: 2/50. Come on..
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Mike Carey » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:52 pm

My replies in blue.

jens wrote:Drift fishing with corky/yarn is based on mainly feel am I right, can we agree on that? A person casts, feels the bottom with their weight.. tick tick tick tap tick tap and then pause.. Set the hook right? Do I have a fish? Or a snag? Rockfish, stickfish, gearonthebottomfish? Sometimes that snag pulls back? You feel a head shake maybe?

OK, but that is how a bite feels with a drift fishing gear. You can't say it's not a skilled caught fish just because the technique dictates that a bite is registered on the tip of a persons pole as something "not quite right".

I am going on experience. Of the fish I have caught with hardware or bait, there is absolutely no doubt of a bite. Why is there so much confusion with anglers when they are driftfishing?? Why do I always get asked from rookie river fisherman, "How do I know I have a bite?"

Again, see above. Just because the bite is registered in a different way doesn't mean it wasn't a skill caught fish. It is just - different. And again, I'll ask (which you haven't addressed). How can you tell me with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that your hardware didn't get flossed? It's being retrieved along the bottom. The fish has it's mouth open. The line travels along the mouth. The fish turns it's head slightly in the direction of where the rubbing is coming from. And "ta-da" the hardware hooksets in the mouth. You don't see it, so you don't know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. I've had savage responses from my drift gear hook getting set - very savage. I've had my rod about ripped out of my hands. How is that different from a savage hardware bite?

Most of us aren't fishing small remote systems where the fish aren't being bombarded by cannonballs and long leaders. But I will believe a fish will take a corky/yarn there but not in the terminal fisheries we all fish in. One river comes to mind: Tilton River. There is no way in hell a fish is biting in that river, no way. A newb friend fished it over the weekend. He said he hooked into over 50 fish. 50 fish!! He was able to take home 2 fish that were in the mouth. Look at his percentage: 2/50. Come on..

I've not fished the Tilton so I can't respond to your example, but, your friend already answered your question. He snagged 48 fish and fair hooked two. Did the fish take the corkie or did it "floss" into his mouth. That's between God and the fish, unless you have an underwater camera, you and I can't say one way or the other.


I am waiting for your response as to my Hoodsport terminal fishing experience. Again - tons of fish everywhere. Three hours. No bites, no snags, no nothing. Then BAMM obvious (to me anyway) fish biting my drift gear and fish ons, then just like salmon do - light switch OFF. Same number of fish swimming around with open mouths, same gear, but suddenly, no bites, day is done.

The only point I'm tryign to make is this - we don't know. We may think we know, but it's all speculation unless we actually see what is going on under the water.

Oh, one more thing. I would argue it takes a lot more skill to successfully drift fish than it does using a jig and bobber. I mean really - get the depth right, keep the line from dragging, and wait for the fish to floss the jig. [huh] Sorry. :)
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby jens » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:01 pm

I watched the video. What struck me is you guys saying, "It's in the mouth.." Um, why wouldn't it be? Why say that?

Where you guys drift fishing? or casting and retrieving? Did you witness guys on the shore snagging?

I know of a guy who fishes Mud Bay. You want to know what he calls his technique for catching Chum?? Slossing... :-" :-"

Really, jig fishing takes no skills? =D> =D>
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Mike Carey » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:13 pm

jens wrote:I watched the video. What struck me is you guys saying, "It's in the mouth.." Um, why wouldn't it be? Why say that?

Where you guys drift fishing? or casting and retrieving? Did you witness guys on the shore snagging?

I know of a guy who fishes Mud Bay. You want to know what he calls his technique for catching Chum?? Slossing... :-" :-"

Really, jig fishing takes no skills? =D> =D>


"It's in the mouth" - I said it because considering there are so many chum in such a small area you would expect lot's of snags to occur. I was amazed we didn't snag fish, I would have expected some snagged fish. Nate and I both downsized our hooks to size 1-4 to avoid snagging. For the record, I had zero snags, and Nate had one. That was out of several dozen caught. I will note, that there were a lot of sideways fish brought in by others. Which I'm guessing is due to large hooks and slashing techniques, which you and I will agree is a sure recipe for snagging in terminal fisheries.

I was either drift fishing or using jig/float. Using a light slinky and allowing the tidal current to drift the gear along. Nate was just drifting either corkies or dick nights, and some spinners earlier when the fish weren't biting.

BTW, I didn't say jig fishing takes no skills. What I said was I feel drift fishing requires more skills than jig fishing. If you take a five year old along fishing are you going to set him up with a float/jig or a drift gear set up? No brainer. You'll be tying gear all morning and have one frustrated five year old with drift gear, because it requires a hgher level of angler skill to do it correctly.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby jens » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:22 pm

Mike Carey wrote:
jens wrote:I watched the video. What struck me is you guys saying, "It's in the mouth.." Um, why wouldn't it be? Why say that?

Where you guys drift fishing? or casting and retrieving? Did you witness guys on the shore snagging?

I know of a guy who fishes Mud Bay. You want to know what he calls his technique for catching Chum?? Slossing... :-" :-"

Really, jig fishing takes no skills? =D> =D>


"It's in the mouth" - I said it because considering there are so many chum in such a small area you would expect lot's of snags to occur. I was amazed we didn't snag fish, I would have expected some snagged fish. Nate and I both downsized our hooks to size 1-4 to avoid snagging. For the record, I had zero snags, and Nate had one. That was out of several dozen caught. I will note, that there were a lot of sideways fish brought in by others. Which I'm guessing is due to large hooks and slashing techniques, which you and I will agree is a sure recipe for snagging in terminal fisheries.

I was either drift fishing or using jig/float. Using a light slinky and allowing the tidal current to drift the gear along. Nate was just drifting either corkies or dick nights, and some spinners earlier when the fish weren't biting.


Help me understand. You said, "Oh, one more thing. I would argue it takes a lot more skill to successfully drift fish than it does using a jig and bobber. I mean really - get the depth right, keep the line from dragging, and wait for the fish to floss the jig. Sorry. "

And the Chum you caught you were using what again? And you guys couldn't get them to bite spinners/spoons and jigs?? Interesting.. :-" :-" But it is so easy to catch fish on jigs.. get the right depth.. Bobber downs are super easy. :cheers:
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Gringo Pescador » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:42 pm

I tried to weigh in on this earlier today - wrote up this big long thing about my experiences, opinions etc. Got blown out and lost it before it got posted. Oh well.. here is my input. All of it, my opinion/experience...

I'm not a big fan of drift fishing, I will do it where conditions warrant, but it is not my go to method. But it has nothing to do with flossing or not flossing, I just like other methods better and am more confident with them.

I can tell you I have caught exactly 3 coho, 1 chum and 1 pink drift fishing and lost about that many more. All 5 of them were hooked INSIDE the mouth and 4 of the 5 (and those I have lost) I felt a definite take, not a pause, not a tick - an unmistakable take. The 5th jumped before I realized he had my hook in his mouth - flossed? I will never know. When I drift fish, that is what I wait for, that take (now that I think about it, maybe that is why I don't produce as well drift fishing :-k )

Funny thing is I have never foul hooked a fish drift fishing, but I have..
Foul hooked coho with a spoon
Foul hooked steelhead smolt with a float/jig
Foul hooked a Sea Run Cutt in the sound with a spinner
Foul hooked a jack in the sound with a buzz bomb
Foul hooked pinks twitching jigs
Heck I even foul hooked a surf perch on Copalis Beach with a drop shot setup!

Now a couple questions to ponder:

If a salmon/steelhead will hit a jig under a float, why wouldn't that same salmon/steelhead hit a corky/yarn of the same size, shape, color, scent, & depth??

Fishing with float & jig I have had the bobber disappear in an instant, but I have also seen it slowly go under as if the jig caught on a snag only to set the hook and have fish on - did those fish "take" that jig? and if so, why couldn't that same fish
take a corky/yarn in the same fashion?
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby OFFDAAHOOK » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:33 pm

jens wrote:
natetreat wrote:Every year we have the same discussion. It's an age old ethical conundrum for salmon fishermen. Read the old thread, and then ask your questions. Otherwise this will turn into a flame topic and there are heated opinions on all sides. Just keep an eye on Jens posts :) Oops, there I go, I did it.


Good =D> =D> . I love that I am in the minority in this discussion. I know I haven't been river fishing that long, but from every fish I have hooked using corky/yarn I know the fish didn't voluntarily take my offering. So according to the definition of snagging, flossing is snagging. Sigh I am a snagger. 8-[

With that said, until flossing is made illegal, then I do it. My friends do it. We at least admit flossing takes zero skills to get a fish hooked in the mouth. I like to use a long leader so most of my fish are lined in the mouth. Gil plate forward right? #-o

Of all the gear that is used, what method foul hooks more fish? You never hear, "It's in da mouth!!" EVER from guys fishing bait and hardware. Think about it.

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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby EAmon ___hoffman123 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:19 pm

i just got back from the satsop river and we threw jigs all day and we snagged more chum's then we cuaght of all the fish. but when we managed to hook coho's the least populated fish in the river these fish wanted it bad. the keeper we managed with a jig was down the throat and then i thought theese fish were attacking it and not flossing it.So for the people who think you can floss with a jig you simpley can't either you're snaggin the fish in the ass or your pissing the fish off and then jig ends up down its throat.

I have nothing wrong with drift fishing at all. When we were on the skykomish river for coho we cuaght all of our fish drift fishing not a bite on eggs.hmmmh the corkie and yarn were also down the fishes throat similial to the satsop river. The fish that i accidentley snagged were all cuaght on a bobber and a jig. So how does drift fishing meen your flossing when i've gotten the same results using a jig when they were caught dwon the throat [laugh] [laugh] [flapper] [confused] [bored]
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby Mike Carey » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:09 pm

jens wrote:Help me understand. You said, "Oh, one more thing. I would argue it takes a lot more skill to successfully drift fish than it does using a jig and bobber. I mean really - get the depth right, keep the line from dragging, and wait for the fish to floss the jig. Sorry. "

And the Chum you caught you were using what again? And you guys couldn't get them to bite spinners/spoons and jigs?? Interesting.. :-" :-" But it is so easy to catch fish on jigs.. get the right depth.. Bobber downs are super easy. :cheers:


jens,

I fished probably 2/3 drift gear, 1/3 float jig. I never said we couldn't get them to bite with the other methods. What I said was we had a window where the bite turned on and then multiple methods were effective. Personally, I enjoy hooking fish with drift gear more than floats. I like the tactile sensation of the fish bite.

You keep avoiding answering my question. In our Hoodsport trip, as someone who believes that drift gear catch fish by flossing because those fish are swimming around getting the corkie dragged into their mouths, how do you explain all those fish swimming around us and our not hooking one fish for 3+ hrs, then suddenly catching fish left and right, then once again having this action turn off? If flossing was a real thing then it only stands to reason we would have been catching fish the entire time, because trust me, we had those fish all around us the entire time.

And, what about hardware/flossing. My previous example seems perfectly plausible as a way that drift/retrieving spoons or spinners has the exact same potential for "snagging" a fish in it's mouth.

Not trying to be difficult, I am interested in your explanations to the above questions.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby nat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:26 pm

I actually created a username just to weigh in on this. I used to be a die hard float fisherman. It was partly because it is really effective and partly because I couldn't figure out drift fishing, swinging at bumps that weren't fish, throwing my arm out of socket for nothing, comin home with a sore shoulder & no fish. This year for salmon I decided to try to learn to drift fish since there would be plenty of target practice, i.e. pinks. I can say that the tick, tick, pause rings true to me for flossin, since it seems like the line is caught in the fishes mouth, lifting the weight off the bottom so it doesn't tick along. I can also say that my corkies and yarn set ups have been absolutely attacked! This last weekend on the Humptulips, I was fishing the drift close,(lots of guys forget to fish it close, you don't always need to throw across the whole river!) and as I was starting to reel in, a coho chased my corkie and snapped at it. I could see it through the water since it was pretty clear. When I got the fish in, the hook was attached over an inch inside the fishes lower jaw. The same thing happenned this year with pinks. I also came up on two guys on the Satsop this year that were there to snag, throwing into a hole and rippin on the count of three. (My buddy and I noticed it was a consistent count) they snagged fish after fish, but only got one in= pretty obvious snagging. I have always noticed bites turning off and on, where corkies or anything get bit more than when it is off- snagging works anytime. If guys are feeling for a fish and giving it a rip, that is drift fishing to me, and if they are rippin several times a drift they should expect to get some comments. Bottom line is that it comes down to the intention of the fisherman, and not whether they are using corkies or other gear. Since we don't always know intentions, we should do what we feel is right by the resource and try to help others enjoy the sport while leaving alone those that won't/ don't care about the difference.
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Re: flossing/snagging

Postby MotoBoat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:30 pm

[quote="Gringo Pescador"]I tried to weigh in on this earlier today - wrote up this big long thing about my experiences, opinions etc. Got blown out and lost it before it got posted.

I was curious if some time passed because of the length of time it took to type out that lengthy, thought induced comment, and you went to post your reply, and couldn't? That has happened to me several times. It works to hit the back button until the screen appears with your reply in the post a reply box. Then select submit. That works less than half the time. In the case where it does not submit. Back button to the post a reply box with your reply in it, copy and past to a new, empty post a reply box and submit. That works every time. There is like a time elapsed lock out that occurs. The same occurs on another website I frequent.

Sorry, nothing to add to the flossenger topic as I do not riv'r fish. Carry on fellow floss-n-aggers.
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